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Greetings Bart:

I was reading over these posts again, and thought to my self
while reading this one, and a previous one in which you
gave an analogy about a mathematical proof, I think I
agree with what Bart is saying. Please see below.

"Bart Goddard" wrote in message
news:138.48.09.05.765943000@srcbs.org...
>
>
> adamst@no.spam wrote:
>
> >>In one sense, there is grace for all, because Jesus paid
for
> >>everyone's sins. If we have to think of grace as a
substance,
> >>then there is an infinite amount, and there is
sufficient for
> >>all men.
> >
> > That's part of it. Given that you feel it is sufficient
(as I do)
> > for all men, does it "apply" to all men?
>
> I muffed my wording a bit. I wanted to get the idea
across
> that 1. There is an infinite amount of grace (which would
> mean there is sufficient for all men, and 2. That _each_
> man has sufficient grace with his name on it, so to speak.
> (Still under the analogy that grace is a substance.)
>
> The Lutheran model is that Jesus earned enough grace for
> each and every man. (This is jusification in the narrow
> sense.) It is the work of the Holy Spirit to apply that
> grace to each man. (This is sanctification in the narrow
> sense.) The Holy Spirit applies that grace as He sees
fit,
> and we can't know why it sticks to some men and not
others.

This last sentence is where I part with you.

I believe that the Holy Spirit applies grace, i.e., drawing
to
Christ, to all men. He does this to the elect until they
finally
believe. He also does this to the non-elect, but they never
believe. They use their will (free to some extent) to reject
all the proofs. This, I think, accords with the truth that
man is
not saved by his will, but also with the truth that God
draws all men to Christ and desires that all men be saved.

It is not that the elect make a positive decision, but that
they,
under the teaching of God are convinced, they finally see
the
"proof" as you posted in a previous post.

I think you also [but my memory
is failing], some time ago pointed out that one does not
CHOOSE to believe. But would you agree that one being
shown a proof (say such as you gave as an example), can
reject it? They can not listen to critical steps, etc., and
hence
never be convinced.

Further, I would contend that most of the elect also reject
God's
drawing (proofs) for some time. We all come not because we
are seeking God, but because He is continuing to draw us.

So we have not the power of will to b